tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post4417170835525101469..comments2024-01-05T11:00:30.673-06:00Comments on DFW Point-to-Point: People Versus BatesSteve Ahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-86698490120199515982010-03-28T08:30:44.423-05:002010-03-28T08:30:44.423-05:00As a very general rule executions/enforcements of ...As a very general rule executions/enforcements of judgements that are appealed are stayed pending the outcome of the appeal<br /><br />And again as a very general rule, the fact of an appeal being made **may** not necessarily mean as in this case that a new trial will be held<br /><br />It generally is incumbent on the party winning at trial (the City in this case) to do "something", in this case maybe asking for a hearing; at the District Court level, that jurisdiction may not have any interest in trying/hearing the case<br /><br />Generally, double jeopardy, would prevent the City for filing an appeal and trying Bates again on the same charge<br /><br />It might be that if the City saw a real chance of loosing at the District Court level they might just "blow off" the appealChuck Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135578486955751337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-79286647637811699962010-03-27T19:11:40.881-05:002010-03-27T19:11:40.881-05:00Thanks, Steve. Your time and trouble are much appr...Thanks, Steve. Your time and trouble are much appreciated. The fog is lifting.<br /><br />Cheers!Ed Saillandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-19905782218190530612010-03-27T15:49:32.652-05:002010-03-27T15:49:32.652-05:00One added point. I presume, but do not know for ce...One added point. I presume, but do not know for certain, that the results of the rehearing could then by appealed by whichever party loses, or possibly by both if there are acquittals on some charges and convictions on others.<br /><br />It is entirely possible that Reed could win on all counts, and then have the result vacated on appeal from the City of Ennis. A lot of people forget that our justice system is not designed to be simple.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-69985415422634265382010-03-27T15:43:46.746-05:002010-03-27T15:43:46.746-05:00Ed S, I can understand your confusion. I may share...Ed S, I can understand your confusion. I may share it to some degree, but here's what I believe is the case (no pun intended).<br /><br />WRT to County Court, I believe you are correct, and Bates has posted about that in his blog for added details. As far as I know, there is not a trial date for that charge at present.<br /><br />WRT Municipal Court - as I understand it, when someone wants to appeal the decision and it is NOT a court of record, the procedure is to simply rehear the case. ALSO, as I understand it, the biggest factor in whether or not a traffic case IS part of a court of record is whether a proper transcript was made. If not, an appeals court would have no way to proceed. Most traffic cases don't get appealed, so you can see that making fancy transcripts would mostly be a waste of taxpayer or defendant money. Agree with him or disagree with him, the Bates case is far different than the usual "driving 75 in a 65 zone" case. I think it is safe to presume that the rehearing will include a proper transcript. As I understand it, the rehearing will be in Waxahachie, where the facilities and support are better set up to handle such things, but I do not what date on which that hearing will occur.<br /><br />I hope this clarifies things for you, and also for others that are also thinking this is wending its way up to the US Supreme Court. The first step is to get a trial in which there is a proper record. I guess I'd have to say that the verdict was not set aside, but it cannot be affirmed or reversed by the appeals process since nobody can say exactly what happened to result in that verdict. My own account is probably the closest thing to "official proceedings" that will ever exist and that's one reason I wrote it.<br /><br />Please do not interpret any of the above as any dig OR kudos on Ennis or Ellis County - I've noticed that people seem to be reading all sorts of things into my words lately. The rehearing and trial move have NOTHING to do with the quality of justice IN Ennis. That's just the way things get done. It would be different if the events had taken place in Tarrant or Dallas Counties.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-2085142279577468642010-03-27T13:13:50.430-05:002010-03-27T13:13:50.430-05:00A quick follow-up to my recent note, Steve -- and ...A quick follow-up to my recent note, Steve -- and more questions, I'm afraid. I'm finding Reed Bate' legal embroilments a bit hard to disentangle. I take it that he still has an outstanding charge to answer in county court. Is this correct? <br /><br />I'm also puzzled by the outcome of the Municipal Court trial. Has that verdict now been set aside and a retrial in a court of record ordered? (And if so, on what basis was the original verdict nullified?) Or is the judgment of the trial court simply being appealed? (And again, if THIS is the case, what are the grounds for the appeal? A point of law presumably, since appeal courts seldom revisit trial courts' findings of fact -- but that seems at variance much of what I've read above.) <br /><br />As you can see, my confusion is nearly total. Can you -- or anyone else, for that matter -- dispel the fog surrounding Bates' labyrinthine legal misadventures?<br /><br />Thanks!Ed Saillandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-46043332981712683612010-03-27T12:27:29.501-05:002010-03-27T12:27:29.501-05:00My apologies for the tardy response, Steve. In ans...My apologies for the tardy response, Steve. In answer to your question, I've no idea how "club riders rode…20-30 years ago [as] compared to today." There must be plenty of folks who do, though.<br /><br />Changing tack now, I'm really looking forward to your summary of the CDC/DOT data. But if time presses -- and when does it not? -- I'd be happy with the source citations alone. I'd still like to know P M Summer's claim to special expertise in this area, too. Perhaps he'd be good enough to shed some light on the matter himself.<br /><br />Cheers!Ed Saillandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-5092884839107782312010-03-26T23:27:02.214-05:002010-03-26T23:27:02.214-05:00Video - Mythbusters addressed the specific situati...Video - Mythbusters addressed the specific situation that Chip was on trial for, and it was shot WITH that situation in mind. On the other hand, if I'd have been the prosecutor, I'd have really ripped into any showing of "Seven Fold." In the first place, it didn't show a relevant high speed road with a shoulder. In the second place, review that video, particularly 1:04 into the top video. I would not choose to show cyclists blowing a stop sign in a vehicular manner in a court of law. I had to watch that portion of the video several added times because I could not believe what I was seeing!<br /><br />Mythbusters, as a trial video in Texas, had two fatal flaws. One, it was not shot IN Texas, though an identical video could easily have been done anywhere in the US by someone with the same equipment. The second flaw with Mythbusters was that it did not consider how the cyclist would look to a jury sitting twelve to fourteen feet away, watching it on a 19" screen. The cyclist looked like a speck of dust on the TV screen. Keri noted that lesson and would likely prefer a different lens in order to show smaller objects more as the human eye would see them if the same video were being shot today.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-75404802995864217212010-03-26T22:01:28.152-05:002010-03-26T22:01:28.152-05:00Danc, good to see you! I'm honored. The LEO wa...Danc, good to see you! I'm honored. The LEO was initially somewhat confused about what to charge Chip with. In the three Ennis counts, however, all were "Impeding Traffic" and that is what was tried in court. MOST of the confusion within Ennis was involved with the exact statutes and how they related to other laws involving cyclists. Go to <br /><br />http://chipsea.blogspot.com/2009/10/nice-meeting-you-officer-watson.html<br /><br />and then proceed forward through the archives for a better perspective. I'll suggest to Eliot that he do something to make this easier at the Chipseal info site.<br /><br />OTOH, the (still to this date) SINGLE Ellis COUNTY charge was much more confused. That was initally listed as riding a bike on the road and then got changed at least twice afterwards. At one point, it looked like a charge that could have landed Chip in jail for up to 180 days and abandoned the traffic code entirely!<br /><br />Regardless of what I might personally think of the Ennis PD, I think the objective evidence has them ahead of the Ellis County guys at the moment. It would be nice if ALL of the LE guys could get a quality briefing on bike law and what it means in the case of Chip. In the long run, it could make things simpler for everyone.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-18223053926658933092010-03-26T18:44:04.217-05:002010-03-26T18:44:04.217-05:00Steve A: Thanks for the account.
Chip faced three...Steve A: Thanks for the account.<br /><br />Chip faced three counts in courts but didn't law enforcement "change the counts" once or twice? How common is that? Dreaming up counts on the way to the judge?<br /><br />Pleasantly surprised the Judge didn't throw "Mythbusters on Highway 535" out entirely. I wonder why PM didn’t consider the Dallas videos? Mythbusters is more appropriate to busting "impedance" but "Seven Fold" shows cyclist using lane control in Texas. <br /><br />http://cycledallas.blogspot.com/2009/03/dallas-run-seven-fold-revelation.html<br /> <br />Just a thought.danchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09656663165658142443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-55636779006114406932010-03-26T10:54:29.936-05:002010-03-26T10:54:29.936-05:00Hwy 879 is a two lane with 10 foot lanes and copio...Hwy 879 is a two lane with 10 foot lanes and copious amounts of chip-seal as well as other hazards like parallel to traffic flow cracks. It is exactly like FM 1722, but with higher volumes of traffic. Photos of FM 1722 can be found in the early posts on my blog.<br /><br />It is my opinion that Steve has sheltered me from some due criticism. I am clear on the law, amateurish when needing to make an emotional appeal. The prosecution blundered at least twice, and I failed to press my case to take advantage.<br /><br />Taking caution from the Wooley case in California, and thinking it was a “court of record”, I spent time examining my accusers to get as many facts as possible into the “record”. But because the three events were combined into one trial, it was too much for the jury.<br /><br />I have filed for appeal under the direction of legal counsel. The trial date has not yet been set. <br /><br />I am sending out individual thank you letters to all who have so far contributed money to the cause.ChipSealhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07095195723481694050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-38537291766726884572010-03-25T18:45:29.388-05:002010-03-25T18:45:29.388-05:00The trial will be reheld; moved to the County Seat...The trial will be reheld; moved to the County Seat. Appeals will depend on the outcome of that trial. Reed has an attorney.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-8108000228733144422010-03-25T13:22:01.988-05:002010-03-25T13:22:01.988-05:00Has an appeal been filed?
Has Bates hired an atto...Has an appeal been filed?<br /><br />Has Bates hired an attorney yet?<br /><br />Chuck Davis<br />TulsaChuck Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135578486955751337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-32280563733310516512010-03-25T06:11:38.022-05:002010-03-25T06:11:38.022-05:00Stu42j, he did not instruct the jury to ignore the...Stu42j, he did not instruct the jury to ignore the "except" part. He left it out. The instructions were precisely as in the "case goes to the jury" paragraph. That part is word-for-word.<br /><br />I do not think the jury would have concluded that Reed was proceeding at a "reduced speed" since he was going as fast for him as was possible. The ones that might (if they weren't paying attention) have to operate at reduced speed for safe operation were motorists coming up from behind. In the fact, few motorists really had to actually reduce their speed to operate safely.<br /><br />I paid an UNUSUAL amount of attention to traffic interruptions, both in the right lane and on the shoulder on the way home (on I-45) that night. Invariably, both I and the other traffic moved into the left lane a half mile before we came upon the actual interruption. This was mostly true even for POTENTIAL interruptions such as on ramps. Prudent users of the road (motorized or not), take advantage of the space available in a given traffic situation to minimize risk.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-11392457627203165532010-03-24T23:01:50.325-05:002010-03-24T23:01:50.325-05:00Did the judge specifically instruct the jury to ig...Did the judge specifically instruct the jury to ignore the "except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation"? Or did he simply leave it out?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-28224008264855694202010-03-24T19:27:48.034-05:002010-03-24T19:27:48.034-05:00Ed S, a question back at ya. Do you have recollect...Ed S, a question back at ya. Do you have recollections of the way club riders rode on the road 20-30 years ago compared to today?Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-79774804717480321152010-03-24T19:24:57.865-05:002010-03-24T19:24:57.865-05:00Ed, after I heard PM say "Senior Transportati...Ed, after I heard PM say "Senior Transportation Planner" my next recollection was the judge wanting to get to the real questions. The witness did not go beyond his "most" statement and nobody but me seemed to want to hear more details. Since then, I've discovered there ARE more details. CDC/DOT to be specific. Assuming this storm goes away and my real Internet comes back, I'll do a post on it, probably over the weekend. What can I say, I'm an engineer and like to dig through data firsthand, without someone interpreting it to suit an agenda. Still, I WAS struck by PM's statement, because it tracks with all those URBAN new stories that show a car with a little RH damage and a bike with an undamaged rear wheel. As we all know, however, urban and rural do not always match up. Stay tuned. I'm REALLY glad that question got asked!Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-71701325825051762222010-03-24T19:11:05.216-05:002010-03-24T19:11:05.216-05:00I would not argue with Yokota's assessment whi...I would not argue with Yokota's assessment which also explains Ham's observation.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-37612680364030195942010-03-24T17:52:04.106-05:002010-03-24T17:52:04.106-05:00It seems the defense tried to appeal to the intell...It seems the defense tried to appeal to the intelligence of the jury, when an emotional appeal might have worked better? Props to PM for providing his expertise for Chipseal, but it appears the jury paid no attention to it.<br /><br />The video makes sense for cycling trivia nuts like you and I, but for the everyday jury of my peers it's probably completely irrelevant. Know your audience and modify the message for that audience.Yokota Fritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04808661100114872654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-51104111602836933102010-03-24T16:53:20.363-05:002010-03-24T16:53:20.363-05:00A very helpful summary, Steve. You note that P M S...A very helpful summary, Steve. You note that P M Summer "related his qualifications" as an expert witness before giving evidence. Can you remember what he said in this regard?<br /><br />I'm also interested in Summer's testimony to the effect that "cyclists mostly [get] sideswiped on the highway shoulder." Can you recall Summer's evidence bearing on this point in greater detail (e.g., statistics, source(s) of data, and the like)?<br /><br />Thanks.Ed Saillandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-8676946792576646562010-03-24T15:25:02.002-05:002010-03-24T15:25:02.002-05:00For clarification, where exactly was the kangaroo ...For clarification, where <em>exactly</em> was the kangaroo standing ?Hamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17182921009517833997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-17737271392762243602010-03-23T21:49:21.582-05:002010-03-23T21:49:21.582-05:00Update on Tuesday based on comments and forums dis...Update on Tuesday based on comments and forums discussing the subject.Steve Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13650405341304401203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-42009899672350053092010-03-23T09:29:47.717-05:002010-03-23T09:29:47.717-05:00No Court reporter?
Chuck Davis
TulsaNo Court reporter?<br /><br />Chuck Davis<br />TulsaChuck Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18135578486955751337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-88944047140113440962010-03-23T06:07:01.358-05:002010-03-23T06:07:01.358-05:00Steve,
Thank you for taking the time to do this a...Steve,<br /><br />Thank you for taking the time to do this and for your most helpful notes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-50895896583625671122010-03-22T22:36:51.941-05:002010-03-22T22:36:51.941-05:00Excellent report! Thanks!
I agree about the how t...Excellent report! Thanks!<br /><br />I agree about the how the video translates from the web-embed screen to a big screen. Next time I do dash cam video I will use an HD camcorder. The VIO was inadequate in both lens degree and resolution.Kerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14617647529657485483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2523357558654725888.post-55214558765477138042010-03-22T21:36:58.847-05:002010-03-22T21:36:58.847-05:00Kind of scary.Kind of scary.cafiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05749761363337659545noreply@blogger.com